Did you know Alabama already has nearly 200,000 people on a government plan for healthcare?

Big difference (0.00 / 0)

Those individuals get their health care from their current (or former) employer in exchange for services rendered.  It isn't a "loss leader" available to all for below market rate premiums because it is allowed to operate as a tax subsidized money loser.

I guess, though, that Tricare is actually avalable to nearly anyone who wants it.  Just stop by your local recruiter and start earning it.

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by: Brian @ Thu Jul 02, 2009 at 12:00:22 PM CDT

3 Health Insurance Questions for Brian. (0.00 / 0)

1. Do you and your family have health insurance?

2. If so, is said insurance provided by your employer(s)?

3.  If you or your spouse lost your job(s) would you still have access to health insurance?

The work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives and the dreams shall never die.~Senator Edward M. Kennedy (D. MA)

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by: Redeye @ Thu Jul 02, 2009 at 12:21:13 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

No system is perfect (0.00 / 0)

Substitute health care with anything (food, clothing, muscle car, etc.) and rephrase your question...

If you lack the financial means to acquire what you want/need is it appropriate for the government to forcibly take property from others so that they can then provide you with what you desire?

Does it matter if it is a "need" vs. a "want?"  Who decides what is a "need?"  How do you discern when someone isn't able to afford what they "want/need" due to their own poor choices or do to circumstances outside of their control?

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by: Brian @ Thu Jul 02, 2009 at 12:46:19 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

O-I-C Brian (0.00 / 0)

Healthcare, food, clothing, muscle car, etc should only be afforded to those who have the financial means to acquire them.  If they don't have the financial means to aquire them due to their own poor choices or due to circumstances outside of their control they are just tough out of luck.

God bless America.

BTW, I noticed you didn't answer my questions.

The work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives and the dreams shall never die.~Senator Edward M. Kennedy (D. MA)

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by: Redeye @ Thu Jul 02, 2009 at 13:53:59 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Your answer... (0.00 / 0)

Yes I would have access to health care even if I lost my job.  I am perfectly free to go out and purchase a policy on my own if I so desire and have the financial ability.  Same applies for anything else in life.

[Insert standard indignant response from Redeye about how awful it is that health care costs money and I might, thus, be effectively denied access.]

Gas for my truck costs money.  If I don't have a job (for whatever reason) should the government furnish me with gas?

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by: Brian @ Thu Jul 02, 2009 at 16:58:34 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

*Sigh* (0.00 / 0)

The work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives and the dreams shall never die.~Senator Edward M. Kennedy (D. MA)

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by: Redeye @ Thu Jul 02, 2009 at 19:37:05 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

False analogy. (4.00 / 1)

Health care is not a commodity. A better analogy would be that there is only ONE truck available, the dealer can charge any price he wants and/or deny you a truck altogether, AND the truck may only get two miles a gallon but the mileage is never printed on the window sticker.

Furthermore, you predicate this false analogy on the "get a job" strawman when there are tens of millions of Americans working full-time without health insurance, and even many that have insurance still go broke over costs their policy doesn't cover.

Private insurance is a for-profit business. Insurers look for ways and reasons to limit, deny, or cut off coverage; they regularly ration care, insert themselves in the diagnosis and treatment, and otherwise act just like your worst nightmare of Big Brother. Except they aren't Big Brother, and that's the point.

You can at least contact your representatives in Congress when Big Brother screws you. When Little Brother screws you, your options are very limited and you have NO representation.

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by: Osborne Ink @ Thu Jul 02, 2009 at 23:19:54 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

NO representation? (0.00 / 0)

Give me a break.  You clearly aren't aware of the medical malpractice litigation industry that serves as a check on abuses.  There is room for improvement there, but litigation is an important safeguard.  The prospect of having to write my senators and congressman about long waits in the ER does not attract me, I can tell you.

You people love to use the word strawman even when it is not applicable.  For the record, I support (and have for years) finding a way to decouple health care from employment as I firmly believe it causes significant problems.  One of which seems to be the talking point du jour here.

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by: Brian @ Fri Jul 03, 2009 at 06:18:18 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

And YOU PEOPLE (0.00 / 0)

Are biting off your nose to spite your face.   

The work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives and the dreams shall never die.~Senator Edward M. Kennedy (D. MA)

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by: Redeye @ Fri Jul 03, 2009 at 10:32:02 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Join the military if you need healthcare. (0.00 / 0)

Yeah, that's a great solution.

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by: melmel @ Thu Jul 02, 2009 at 12:23:03 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Directed at moochers (0.00 / 0)

My point is that there are a bunch of folks who want something for nothing (single payer).  Free healthcare!!!  Wahoo!  Or they want something for less than the market rate (public option).  More "free" stuff!

You brought up Tricare to illustrate some kind of comfort with government provided health care.  But that is a fallacious argument since those individuals earned their benefit.  My "go join the military" quip was directed at those who want the free/subsidized health care.  (An I'm not talking about the chronically ill - I'm talking about able bodied folks.)  I don't it when people lobby our government and ask them to take more from me because their own life choices have left them wanting more.  So I suggested, somewhat tongue in cheek, that those folks could easily get their government provided health care if they were willing to earn it.  They won't do that of course because they want me to pay for it without them having to work for it.

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by: Brian @ Thu Jul 02, 2009 at 12:41:30 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Ahhh, now I understand Brian. (0.00 / 0)

This hit a nerve because Tricare is the plan you are on. You deserve it. Others don't.

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by: melmel @ Thu Jul 02, 2009 at 12:55:06 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Nope (0.00 / 0)

You didn't hit a nerve - not on Tricare.

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by: Brian @ Thu Jul 02, 2009 at 13:22:49 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

So I'm interested to know what plan you are on... (0.00 / 0)

And if your job ended tomorrow what would you do exactly?

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by: melmel @ Thu Jul 02, 2009 at 13:57:54 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

See above (0.00 / 0)

And I don't have to discuss my personal info here.

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by: Brian @ Thu Jul 02, 2009 at 16:59:24 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

No. I don't know why you post anything here since you are not a Progressive. (0.00 / 0)

It is sad that you think healthcare is a benefit and not a right.

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by: melmel @ Thu Jul 02, 2009 at 17:10:06 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Brian (4.00 / 2)

is a Social Darwinist. and that's OK.

Capitalism in its pure form IS Social Darwinism. The weaker members are weeded out due to lack of health care, decent nutrition, etc., and the stronger survive to reproduce. Only problem is that the poor don't die QUICK enough, thus leading to overpopulation.

See, poor folks only exist to help the rich make more money, and when their short, pitiful period of usefulness is over, they really should be exterminated; otherwise they simply become a burden on the State.

I'm OK with people like Brian, as long as they aren't simultaneously jawing about 'the Lord'.

 It's the ones who do both that get my goat--I'd kinda/sorta like to burn them at the stake (harking back to my Puritan ancestors, I guess) LOL

 

When in doubt tell the truth. It will confound your enemies and astound your friends.---Mark Twain

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by: julie @ Thu Jul 02, 2009 at 18:51:00 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I've read all of the "Brian" posts...and although they do show a high degree (4.00 / 1)

of sophistication for a republican, all his arguments, no matter what the commodity is or its quality, is based on distribution of that commodity solely on ones ability to pay ....I agree that almost all commodities should be rationed by those means, but there are things such as education, health care, national defense, public infrastructures, etc. that should not be - and Brian should be able to see the reason for treating them differently. It gets back to the idea of Social Darwinism that Julio spoke of and the belief by most Americans that there are a few commodities that should not be rationed/distributed solely on one's ability to pay the exorbitant price.   

We once had slavery in this country because some people thought it was entirely ok to own slaves since slave holders had purchased them and the country operated under a capitalistic system.  But then there were people of the opinion that although it was completely possible to purchase another man or woman, it still wasn't right no matter how you slice or dice the issue. All that is history and we all know how that was all worked out in the end...basically at the point of a bayonet.  Maybe health care is a similar issue....maybe the thinking people will have to force the issue down the throat of the unthinking by way of the bayonet,  figuratively speaking of course.  The bayonet in the case coming in the form of the overwhelming control of congress by those thinking people.

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by: BlueSeeingRed @ Thu Jul 02, 2009 at 20:35:28 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Bring on the bayonets! (4.00 / 1)

Figuratively speaking of course :).

The work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives and the dreams shall never die.~Senator Edward M. Kennedy (D. MA)

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by: Redeye @ Thu Jul 02, 2009 at 20:42:06 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Thank you for elevating the discussion (0.00 / 0)

Power to the thinking people!

Work harder and work smarter!

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by: mooncat @ Thu Jul 02, 2009 at 21:39:33 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Dear julie, (0.00 / 0)

You have hit the nail on the head.  It isn't pretty, but that's where these people are.

Work harder and work smarter!

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by: mooncat @ Thu Jul 02, 2009 at 21:38:48 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

You're close actually (0.00 / 0)

I readily admit that it is a tough problem b/c I don't think any of us can morally abide by people who can't help themselves (infirmed, children, etc.) dying.  But how do you compel the able bodied to contribute to society while helping the aforementioned group?  I also feel that excessive government intervention diminishes the desire and capacity for individuals to offer private, charitable assistance.

And from a purely economic perspective there will always be poor people b/c poor is a relative term.  Resources will never be equally distributed so there will always be poor people.  They can't die off and the government can't transfer enough wealth to eliminate that group.

BTW, I comment here because I don't like to live in a bubble.  Rubbing elbows with folks here reminds there are other lines of thought out there.  I believe we all need that.  Group think is not healthy.

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by: Brian @ Thu Jul 02, 2009 at 22:14:13 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

What in the world are you talking about Brian? (0.00 / 0)

What exactly do you mean by "how do you ccompel the able bodied to contribute to society"?  What able bodies aren't contributing to society?  Contributing to society how?  

 Are you talking about the young African American males who can't get a job because they have a record for selling or using marijuana?  Are you talking about the African American single mothers, who even if they could get a job, couldn't afford the child care cost?  Are you talking about the high school dropouts who attended substandard public schools and aren't trained with a lofe skill?  

What exactly are you trying to say? 

The work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives and the dreams shall never die.~Senator Edward M. Kennedy (D. MA)

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by: Redeye @ Fri Jul 03, 2009 at 10:39:47 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

And on cue Redeye injects race into the discussion (0.00 / 0)

New day, same old song with you.

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by: Brian @ Fri Jul 03, 2009 at 12:22:08 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

No Brian YOU injected race into the discussion (4.00 / 1)

Don't pretend it's not a gop, right wing, media driven sterotype, talking point  that lazy, shiftless, baby making black folks don't want to work and want someone to take care of them and give them something for free, and won't contribute to society.

My daddy has a saying, if you throw a rock at a pen full of pigs the one that hollers is the one that was hit.

The work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives and the dreams shall never die.~Senator Edward M. Kennedy (D. MA)

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by: Redeye @ Fri Jul 03, 2009 at 13:30:02 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I say up (1.00 / 1)

Redeye says black.

I say apple.

Redeye says black.

I say jobs.

Redeye says black.

I say Singapore.

Redeye says black.

I say beer.

Redeye says black.

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You need a new shtick.  The world has left you behind.

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by: Brian @ Fri Jul 03, 2009 at 13:43:12 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

No Brian, you are the old world and you see it crumbling around you. (4.00 / 1)

You are afraid of the progress that is happening in our culture and politics. Instead of hanging out with your own friends you would rather irritate people that clearly have nothing in common with your regressive opinions. I am sorry that adjusting to this new era is so hard for you. The world is changing and you had better lead, follow or get out of the way.

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by: melmel @ Fri Jul 03, 2009 at 14:39:58 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

For Brian (4.00 / 1)

Birth, school, work, death. Your free and democratic society.

 

 

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by: yellowdog @ Thu Jul 02, 2009 at 19:29:30 PM CDT

purrrrfect response. (4.00 / 1)

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by: melmel @ Thu Jul 02, 2009 at 21:18:50 PM CDT

[ Parent ]